@Maldus512 I’m fairly certain Lamdera is a fork and a commercial product, which contradicts the idea that Evan is against forks.
Additionally, can we keep this focused on maintenance and not theories of what Evan may or may not think? This thread would benefit from staying on topic and not speculating about the intentions of others.
I’d still like this thread to wait for Evan’s response to:
Evan, what are you generally thinking about the “small fixes” maintenance need for elm/core etc. repositories?
Could you please share whether you considered some other-than-batching maintenance model (perhaps in later stages of a project) and what criteria would such a model have to pass? Also, any thoughts on delegation? Generally, how to move this discussion forwards?
[have] you considered some other-than-batching maintenance model
He most definitely has, and the current strategy is a deliberate choice. Regarding delegation, then he touches upon the topic in his most recent talk The Hard Parts of Open Source. I recommend watching it if you’d like to understand his position better!
P.S. I think a fork would be great! Given that it is not the first time it has been suggested, it seems at least a few more people would be interested in exploring a more distributed governance style As already mentioned, just remember to change the name and logo!
Indeed, this fork option has been discussed a huge amount of times (including by you @terezka if I remember well) but never actually shown up.
My interpretation of this is that maintaining a whole language/platform/community is a huge work, asking for a lot of investment (and I hope this previous sentence will be read as a recognition of the amazing Evan’s work quality). One have to considerably want improving/changing the language to see enough benefits counterweighting this investment (like Mario did with Lamdera).
I read Martin’s request as “How could we help fixing this little int bugs in elm/parser reported 3 years ago and fulfill this “TODO” in deadEndsToString?”. I hear the will to “batch pull requests” but here this really are bugs which really give a bad image (“What? You want using a language which has a stupid known bug in its std lib for 3 years and didn’t fix it?”). Forking the compiler to just fix those little bugs clearly doesn’t outweigh the investment needed.
I wrote a spec for this before starting work on it, and this still reflects pretty well what I am trying to achieve in the first version - see the use cases listed at the bottom: Elm Package Server · GitHub
In the interests of being as uncontroversial as possible for the first release I also wrote:
Confirm the package does not contain ports.
Confirm the package does not contain kernel code.
I do also think, if I get to V1, that I would be interested in being able to publish patch releases to core packages. I have actually patched and produced a couple of PRs for core packages partly as I am intersted in exploring how this might work in practice. My process is to fork the package at its latest published tag, create an issue describing what is being fixed, linking to related issues in the core packages, and tracking its release status and make a clean patch. That is, to keep things as transparent and maintainable as possible, and to always feed back improvements to the upstream projects - whether or not they are ever accepted there.
I think great care needs to be taken when deciding what to patch. Anything that causes a runtime exception (apart from Debug.todo obviously) is fair game. Issues like this one - int parser fails on trailing decimal separator · Issue #14 · elm/parser · GitHub - I am not so sure about. If the patch never makes it back into Elm, then this introduces divergent behaviour in the alternative system, which could significantly affect program behaviour. There is also a simple workaround, to write your own int parser. So maybe some guidelines on what is suitable for patching need to be written up.
I don’t really see this as a fork of Elm, I would instead call it a release branch, where the Elm Janitor tidying up work goes. I have no desire at all to fork the language, its really a great language and I could not do better.
Some other related thoughts:
At some point beyond V1 I can imagine having a package repo that allows kernel code, this might be called the ‘unsafe’ repo. The domain tags concept in my spec would be very useful here as the ‘unsafe’ domain could be tagged and excluded (would be excluded by default, you would have to opt-in).
I have never yet run into a show-stopper bug in Elms core or compiler. Probably the closest example was the recent Safari for ... in bug, which I note Evan did get involved in the discussion of. As it affects more than just Elm, it seems like Safari should really own that one. The quality is generally very high.
I am interested in using Elm outside of web development because I think it has real potential as a cloud language. Also motiviation for the domain tags concept, since the browser domain is not needed there. This is analogous to the platforms concept in Roc that a few people have mentioned recently.
I like the name Eco, but not so keen on the ‘pro’ bit, although it does reflect my intention that it is for supporting professional work. Eco was already taken, so I had to add something to it, better suggestions very welcome.
If Elm core packages are patched, can they be reliably installed and used with elm-git-install? I have never tried this with a core package, but if it works it provides a way of patching them without forking the compiler. Could be a path of least resistance to move this forward in the short term.
Could be a path of least resistance to move this forward in the short term.
Yes and I really think it is unfortunate. One of elm’s strength is having super nice tooling and easy setup. If we start having those kind of instructions floating around (“oh just add this third party tool, setup this unofficial package”), elm will become way less friendly.
I’m curious – are there community members who are familiar with other languages and how they solve the core maintenance problem? It seems like a hard problem in general. If anyone can offer a bit of compare and contrast, that might be useful as reference.
I think even before going to 3, it is worth assessing what bugs do we want to fix? Building a tool will help to automate this, but I would like to know, what is the demand for the automation and organizational effort? I ask, because as I say, I have not yet run into a showstopper bug with Elm, only minor annoyances. Of course, it is valuable to fix stuff that is obviously fixable, especially where someone has taken the time to make a good PR for it.
So I created a google sheet to collect information on what are the essential fixes that people want?
Just add the description and github link of the issues that are bothering you, or are obviously broken things you can fix, or things that are fixed and have good PRs that should really be merged.
I am happy to do some triaging on this list, if others help make it. The triaging will be to go through the list and look at all the github issues, and fill in some additional fields like - is the issue still current, is it a runtime exception fix, is it a behaviour change but not an API change, is it an API addition, is it an API change, is there a PR, and so on.
As hinted there, what works for some is different than what works for others. Collaboration at the scale of a widely used programming language requires a lot of communication, even just for maintenance and bug fixes. And as Evan says it himself in the video, it is not where his strong suits are. Which I’d say are rather around overall language design and technical achievements. So it’s understandable that he wants to spend his time there instead.
Back on the process regarding possible improvements. I don’t think we should restrain ourselves to not do anything, just by fear of community fragmentation. If what we try to achieve tries to stay as close as possible to elm but improves user experience (like @rupert approach), this will ultimately be beneficial and bring new people instead of fragment the current community.
That being said, all these initiatives are individuals from the community spending some of their free time. So “Elm is gonna stay as it is now for quite some time” is a fair assessment of the situation in my opinion because progress of individuals on their free time is something measured in months rather than weeks. At least as long there isn’t a company with the will and financial capability to support employees on the matter.
Exactly. The point is not to improve the language, as few of us would have the skills and the vision, but just address the issue of patches lingering for years, and make it possible to create core libraries for many other areas where Elm can be used.
I’ve edited my original post to add a summary section to new folks coming to the thread and not wanting to read through all the replies. Hopefully I’ve caught all the important points and nuances. If I’ve taken some things out of context please correct me.
It’s hard to answer this question in the abstract. I think it might be helpful to define a specific task set – both the one-offs and the ongoing maintenance taxes – and estimate the associated labor, again both one-off and recurring. This isn’t just technical work, it’s also setting up a foundation (?) or the like to own copyright and take donations and pay for servers, getting a new logo designed, and so on and so on.
If it’s something 2-3 people can get started in a month dedicating one evening each week, that’s different than if it’s going to take 3 FTEs 6 months to get it all put together. Same story for maintenance.
One option floating in my head was to start a small business that would fill this niche. Basically it would provide an SLA for bug fixes requested by its customers plus perhaps private packages as the core offering. This seems like it would be quite beneficial to the Elm community, since it would provide business types with a simple answer to some of the maintenance questions in this thread (i.e. simply throw some (predictable amount of) money at the problem).
However, I have no idea how sustainable such a model of development could be. So here is a quick poll on that question:
Would you (or your employer) be willing to pay for a commercially maintained fork?
If I think of starting a business around something, I also think, is this the business I would start if my aim was to succeed by making money?
I voted that my company will pay £0 for a maintained Elm, because I don’t think it is the best way to manage things for the benefit of all.
My reasons are:
I feel slightly demotivated to contribute to Elm, pureley out of love for it, knowing that a business that doesn’t give freely back to me is consuming it for profit (if you are so lucky, I don’t think you will make money anyway).
Such a business would inevitably act in its own interests, whilst wielding influence over something that matters to me.
I don’t in any way disagree with businesses making money from Elm (if they can) from the position of being a more neutrally oriented third party, not one that controls its future maintenance and direction.
I think contributing to Elm as a package author has thus far been very rewarding. In addition to really enjoying writing those packages, I also know I have greatly multiplied the effort in what I receive back. That kind of positive cycle is what I would most want to retain about it. I also think it is the way that is most beneficial to all.
I think we are slowly working towards a fork, but I don’t see it as urgent or the next thing that should happen, since there is still a lot of scope to make improvements before that really needs to happen.
An idea I have put forward before is that a fork of it could become an Apache Foundation incubator project. That has some potential advanges:
Apache has been around a good while and is generally well respected.
They can provide hosting resources.
It can help with getting corporate sponsorship and act as a conduit for funding.
They are experienced at mentoring open source projects.
It helps to establish a good governance model for the long term management of a project.
Bus factor has to be resolved before a project can graduate from the incubator - all top-level Apache projects have multiple contributors.
I’ll keep to poll open until the thread closes, but it seems that there is some interest, but (as I suspected) probably not enough to even pay a single person half-time.
I feel slightly demotivated to contribute to Elm, pureley out of love for it, knowing that a business that doesn’t give freely back to me is consuming it for profit
That’s not necessarily how that would work. I think a company set up like this would generally work as open-source and potentially (if the core elm team wanted) could even send PRs to the core repos. The thing one would pay for isn’t exclusive fixes, but the knowledge that someone has your back if a show-stopping bug appears in the core library as well as easy tooling to apply those (and I suspect making that tooling seamless would be a big bulk of the work, especially as few people use the elm compiler just on its own, but rather through integrations with Webpack et al).
Such a business would inevitably act in its own interests, whilst wielding influence over something that matters to me.
Not clear to me that anyone has much influence around here outside the core Elm team. If this hypothetical company became so indispensable that it would start getting influential despite that, I think that would be a very strong signal (and note that Evan and company seem to be very interested and sensitive on the topic of corporate influence on open source) that the current maintenance model may need to be reconsidered. Conversely, if such a company went quickly out of business (or languished in obscurity), it would provide validation to the hypothesis that things are fine as they are.
I don’t think you will make money anyway
Well I wasn’t planning to be the one to run this, but I agree that it doesn’t seem to be an amazing business plan as things stand.